Precise object movement / placement

[Thommo]

A question for experienced users.

I'm doing some small scale modeling for the purpose of export for CNC fabrication (accuracy 0,01mm) and I wondered if the more experienced users could share their wisdom.

I'll simplify this question for the purpose of this discussion.

If I create an object (e.g. a disc or a cube) where one point on the object is at the origin (0,0,0,) and I wish to move it to another location in 3D space e.g. that said point would then be at (-150.00,60.01,40.56), what is your preferred work flow for this?

What I'm doing seems very slow, clumsy and difficult to input accurately.

[vva]

go in the Inspector Palette to Info and type in the coordinates you want to have.

[Thommo]

Thanx VVA,

I will try this because it looks to be way better than what I've been doing.

[Thommo]

Hi vva,

I tried this and I must be missing something because this technique does not seem to allow me to select any point on a 3D object as a reference point to move. It seems to only allow movement referenced from the object "centre" i.e. where the control axes intersect.

What am i missing?

[Thommo]

I wonder if I'm expecting too much?

Maybe the only way to do this is :

- set up some sort of temporary origin????

- make a new reference plane?

- it seems like such a simple thing to want to do !!!

[ZTEK]

The cube is the same, and I have only changed the location of its axes/origin with the Edit Axes tool, which you can use graphically or numerically. Then, you can edit the cube location numerically as you wish by modifying its Origin (X, Y, Z) in the Inspector palette.

Edited May 10 by ZTEK

[vva]

and there are a lot more options:

click in the ToolOptions Relative To >Reference Plane >Axis Through >ClickPoint (for example) 

Use any point in your scene as midpoint of rotation...

vva

[Tech]

@Thommo

Responding to your initial example:

1. Make sure Point snap is enabled
2. Select the 'Move' Tool
3. Click on the point of cube you want to be the origin. (It should highlight in green, and the cube selected in red.)
4. Hit the <Tab> key once to highlight the 'X' positional field (screen upper left), then type in the desired x value (-150.00)
5.  Hit the <Tab> key again to highlight the 'Y' positional field, then type in the desired y value (60.01)
6.  Hit the <Tab> key again to highlight the 'Z' positional field, then type in the desired z value (40.56)
7. Hit Enter/Return.

[Thommo]

Thanx for your responses guys. I find this forum very helpful with people being happy to share their experiences.

Thanx ZTEK : I used axis edit technique and this seems to be the best solution to my problem. I tried it with various different scenarios and it worked a treat every time.

vva: I looked at your suggestion but it seemed to only be relevant to rotation, not a direct move. Please correct if I'm wrong.

Tech: I tried your technique with the tab function various times and got very strange results (the object moved every time to the selected to origin, centered on the midpoint of a side). I don't know what I was doing wrong but the same thing happened regardless of the position of the axes as well.

[Thommo]

Tech: I just tried your "tab" technique to se if I could find what I was missing. When the selected object moved it was placed so that the origin was at (what looks to be) the center of gravity.

[Des]

Hi Thommo, Techs method is the standard method and I've used this technique like forever. You will be able to see the X, Y, Z fields at the top left of your drawing window. As you Tab when moving you will see each field highlight. The selection of the object is key at the begin of the move (Techs step 3) as in where you start the move from, or snapping to a point of origin of the object. After selecting the object at the point where you want it to move from while the move tool is active, start moving the mouse any where, then start typing in the XYZ (tabbing) and hit return as Tech says. If you move you mouse between the tabbing the mouse movement takes priority again and the XYZ fields will change and you will have to undo and do it again. Snapping selection is very important.

[Thommo]

9 hours ago, Des said:

Hi Thommo, Techs method is the standard method and I've used this technique like forever. You will be able to see the X, Y, Z fields at the top left of your drawing window. As you Tab when moving you will see each field highlight. The selection of the object is key at the begin of the move (Techs step 3) as in where you start the move from, or snapping to a point of origin of the object. After selecting the object at the point where you want it to move from while the move tool is active, start moving the mouse any where, then start typing in the XYZ (tabbing) and hit return as Tech says. If you move you mouse between the tabbing the mouse movement takes priority again and the XYZ fields will change and you will have to undo and do it again. Snapping selection is very important.

Hi Des,

I tried this again but there must be a setting somewhere that I'm missing?

Point snap on

Click on the move tool

Click on the point on the object that I want to move to the specific location.

Move the mouse a little

Tab through the X,Y,Z fields

Hit return.

When I do this, the object is moved in such a way that the "centre of gravity" of the object is at the new location. This happens even when I edit the axes to be at the selected point on the object. Is there something else I should be doing?

[Justin Montoya]

Hello Thommo,

Sounds like some good suggestions here and I don't exactly understand your workflow needs to best explain how to optimize moving objects.  Many times I literally just use the move tool 1, 2, or even 3 times in a row to get an object to the correct new location (x,y,z) if I don't have anything else I can use as a Snap or Guide.  Which got me thinking on something that might help you.

You may want to consider setting up your file first by using the Guide or Point tools in addition to setting up your grid in a usable format for you small scale.  That way you could use the Point tool to create a point and move it and copies of it to all your critical points.  Then with this as your 'point map', you could quickly move your other shapes where you want them using the point snaps.  Or you could use the Guide tool and place Guides around as the intersection of these critical points.  Just a thought...

 

Or perhaps this is over complicating things? 

Are you just trying to move a cube from a known click point like this one at origin (0,0,0) to another known point like (12,36,48)?

 

M for Move tool, and then with your correct Snap ON, you click at the origin point...

Which brings up the Input box at the top where you can input the X, Y, and Z coordinates (used the Tab key to get to these input boxes, then hit ENTER when done) example ( 12,36,48) to move to:

 Is that what you're trying to do?

Edited May 13 by Justin Montoya

[ZTEK]

After reading Thommo's question, my interpretation was how to position an object precisely in 3D space based on an "arbitrary point" related to it. This is a common practice for people who work in the mechanical or fabrication fields. "Arbitrary" is not precisely the correct term.

The method I shared is unique in that it's about something other than how to use the Move tool. While it may seem similar, there is an entirely different logic behind it. You can use other methods in formZ for the same purpose, but this one is easy to understand and apply with the accuracy of numerical input if needed; that seemed to me to be what Thommo was looking for.

I use this method regularly to control the position of repetitive objects like doors, windows, handles, hooks, trees, people, AKA blocks/components, etc., or complex single or multiple-joined particular objects. With this method, I can address a practical and very effective solution that I often use to replace Components in formZ, which do not work well when combined with Scenes and Groups. In addition, I always move my 3D models to other CAD software to produce my drawings, and this logic is consistent because the positional geometric information between the parts is maintained. So, this logic is also part of my working system.

Checking how our brains work differently when faced with the same situation or need is fun. 🙃

Edited May 14 by ZTEK

[Thommo]

9 hours ago, Justin Montoya said:

Hello Thommo,

Sounds like some good suggestions here and I don't exactly understand your workflow needs to best explain how to optimize moving objects.  Many times I literally just use the move tool 1, 2, or even 3 times in a row to get an object to the correct new location (x,y,z) if I don't have anything else I can use as a Snap or Guide.  Which got me thinking on something that might help you.

You may want to consider setting up your file first by using the Guide or Point tools in addition to setting up your grid in a usable format for you small scale.  That way you could use the Point tool to create a point and move it and copies of it to all your critical points.  Then with this as your 'point map', you could quickly move your other shapes where you want them using the point snaps.  Or you could use the Guide tool and place Guides around as the intersection of these critical points.  Just a thought...

 

Or perhaps this is over complicating things? 

Are you just trying to move a cube from a known click point like this one at origin (0,0,0) to another known point like (12,36,48)?

 

M for Move tool, and then with your correct Snap ON, you click at the origin point...

Which brings up the Input box at the top where you can input the X, Y, and Z coordinates (used the Tab key to get to these input boxes, then hit ENTER when done) example ( 12,36,48) to move to:

 Is that what you're trying to do?

Hi Justin,

The "simplified" version of what I'm trying to do is basically what you described.

Click on a point on a 3D object (e.g. 10,15,20) and move that object so that that point on the object is now at (e.g. 40,50,60).

I have used the technique that you just described (as far as I can ascertain) but the object is moved so that the centre of gravity of the object is at (40,50,60).

I think that there is more likely a bug in my brain than my software but it's a bit frustrating at present. It's more likely that I'm not setting the move up correctly. As I mentioned previously it does this even when I edit the axes to sit on that chosen point.

Regarding your suggestion of using guides.

I am in the process of doing just that because I think it will simplify my workflow greatly. Setting up separate layers (which I can turn on and off as required) containing respectively horizontal, vertical and custom plane reference lines. This will bring another problem in that the guides are apparently only straight - it would be nice if I could draw circular or curved ones. Perhaps I can sort out a workaround by using the guide point idea? Maybe that is a later request for the AutoDesSys design department??

[Thommo]

6 hours ago, ZTEK said:

After reading Thommo's question, my interpretation was how to position an object precisely in 3D space based on an "arbitrary point" related to it. This is a common practice for people who work in the mechanical or fabrication fields. "Arbitrary" is not precisely the correct term.

The method I shared is unique in that it's about something other than how to use the Move tool. While it may seem similar, there is an entirely different logic behind it. You can use other methods in formZ for the same purpose, but this one is easy to understand and apply with the accuracy of numerical input if needed; that seemed to me to be what Thommo was looking for.

I use this method regularly to control the position of repetitive objects like doors, windows, handles, hooks, trees, people, AKA blocks/components, etc., or complex single or multiple-joined particular objects. With this method, I can address a practical and very effective solution that I often use to replace Components in formZ, which do not work well when combined with Scenes and Groups. In addition, I always move my 3D models to other CAD software to produce my drawings, and this logic is consistent because the positional geometric information between the parts is maintained. So, this logic is also part of my working system.

Checking how our brains work differently when faced with the same situation or need is fun. 🙃

Hi ZTEK,

Your solution works well. The other solution seems a bit simpler for some situations if I could get it to work. 

 

[Thommo]

19 hours ago, Justin Montoya said:

Hello Thommo,

Sounds like some good suggestions here and I don't exactly understand your workflow needs to best explain how to optimize moving objects.  Many times I literally just use the move tool 1, 2, or even 3 times in a row to get an object to the correct new location (x,y,z) if I don't have anything else I can use as a Snap or Guide.  Which got me thinking on something that might help you.

You may want to consider setting up your file first by using the Guide or Point tools in addition to setting up your grid in a usable format for you small scale.  That way you could use the Point tool to create a point and move it and copies of it to all your critical points.  Then with this as your 'point map', you could quickly move your other shapes where you want them using the point snaps.  Or you could use the Guide tool and place Guides around as the intersection of these critical points.  Just a thought...

 

Or perhaps this is over complicating things? 

Are you just trying to move a cube from a known click point like this one at origin (0,0,0) to another known point like (12,36,48)?

 

M for Move tool, and then with your correct Snap ON, you click at the origin point...

Which brings up the Input box at the top where you can input the X, Y, and Z coordinates (used the Tab key to get to these input boxes, then hit ENTER when done) example ( 12,36,48) to move to:

 Is that what you're trying to do?

Hi Justin,

Well now I'm really losing the plot.

I just set up a guide point and when I snapped my selected object to it it snapped to it at the "centre of gravity again"!

This seems to be a common end result when I do this. I must have a setting or selection method wrong somewhere.

[Justin Montoya]

9 hours ago, Thommo said:

Hi Justin,

The "simplified" version of what I'm trying to do is basically what you described.

Click on a point on a 3D object (e.g. 10,15,20) and move that object so that that point on the object is now at (e.g. 40,50,60).

I have used the technique that you just described (as far as I can ascertain) but the object is moved so that the centre of gravity of the object is at (40,50,60).

I think that there is more likely a bug in my brain than my software but it's a bit frustrating at present. It's more likely that I'm not setting the move up correctly. As I mentioned previously it does this even when I edit the axes to sit on that chosen point.

Regarding your suggestion of using guides.

I am in the process of doing just that because I think it will simplify my workflow greatly. Setting up separate layers (which I can turn on and off as required) containing respectively horizontal, vertical and custom plane reference lines. This will bring another problem in that the guides are apparently only straight - it would be nice if I could draw circular or curved ones. Perhaps I can sort out a workaround by using the guide point idea? Maybe that is a later request for the AutoDesSys design department??

Hi Thommo,

I think you might just be missing a step or key press, because when I start the Move tool and single click at the location to move from (in this case the origin (0,0,0)) I can then put in the X,Y,Z coordinates for the new location by using the Tab key between them and then pressing the Enter key to accept the coordinates, all without touching the mouse after the single click to define the start of the Move.  

Are you perchance moving the mouse around while you do this?  This could cause formZ to think you are wanting to follow the mouse input instead of the X,Y,Z coords inputed.

Here is the cube being moved (4',2',5')m in preview before hitting the Enter key.

 

Here it is after the move is complete from pressing the Enter key:

[Justin Montoya]

11 minutes ago, Thommo said:

Hi Justin,

Well now I'm really losing the plot.

I just set up a guide point and when I snapped my selected object to it it snapped to it at the "centre of gravity again"!

This seems to be a common end result when I do this. I must have a setting or selection method wrong somewhere.

Strange.

Sounds like your Snap is not using an End Point snap.  What Snaps do you have enabled?  I usually only use these:

 

[Thommo]

On 5/14/2024 at 6:38 PM, Justin Montoya said:

Strange.

Sounds like your Snap is not using an End Point snap.  What Snaps do you have enabled?  I usually only use these:

 

Hi Justin,

So I tried again. My workflow is as below:

Make a random rectangular object at a random point in 3D space with the rectangle tool.

Topological level "object" selected.

Select Move tool.

Click on bottom left corner point of object (don't touch the mouse again after this).

Hit tab. Tab in origin coordinates (0,0,0).

Hit return.

On the screen shot that I've attached you can see ghosted the old object position and my original click point on the bottom left corner of the object. You can also see the movement line of the object "centre of gravity" to the new origin point of (0,0,0,).

In this example I have on "Snap to point" on, but I tried it again with both "snap to point" and "snap to end point" on. Same result.

I must be doing something else wrong??

 

[Justin Montoya]

AHHA!

Thank you for sharing a screenshot of your problem.  I was unable to repeat your problem UNTIL I duplicated your settings in the Tool Options - Move palette.  Your problem lies in the enabling of the Object Coordinate System.  Uncheck that and try again.

 

Now Unchecked:

 

I'm not exactly sure what the 'Object Coordinate System' is used for, but I do not believe this is enabled by default and I have never used it.  I also can't find anything in the formZ documenation about it so maybe someone else here or Tech can shine some light on that one?

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/assets.autodessys.com/manuals/formz10/formZ_Pro/responsive_html/index.htm#t=07000_Transforming_Objects.html&rhsearch=object coordinate system&ux=search

Cheers.

 

[Thommo]

17 hours ago, Justin Montoya said:

AHHA!

Thank you for sharing a screenshot of your problem.  I was unable to repeat your problem UNTIL I duplicated your settings in the Tool Options - Move palette.  Your problem lies in the enabling of the Object Coordinate System.  Uncheck that and try again.

 

Now Unchecked:

 

I'm not exactly sure what the 'Object Coordinate System' is used for, but I do not believe this is enabled by default and I have never used it.  I also can't find anything in the formZ documenation about it so maybe someone else here or Tech can shine some light on that one?

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/assets.autodessys.com/manuals/formz10/formZ_Pro/responsive_html/index.htm#t=07000_Transforming_Objects.html&rhsearch=object coordinate system&ux=search

Cheers.

 

Hi Justin,

Bingo!  You cracked it!

Thanx heaps.

I am coming out of this confusion and headache a wiser man.

In the real world I would be buying you beer. I'm not sure how that works in the virtual webverse though.  

The Object Coordinate System box was on by default when I opened up Form Z. I have turned it off now in my templates.

It doesn't exist in the Drafting Layout.

It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the object axes, it still looks more like a "centre of gravity thing".

I'll send an email to Support and see if they can come up with any info.

If they get back to me I'll put it back on this thread, unless you have abetter idea. I'm a bit new to this forum.

Regards,

Grant

[Thommo]

On 5/15/2024 at 7:51 PM, Justin Montoya said:

AHHA!

Thank you for sharing a screenshot of your problem.  I was unable to repeat your problem UNTIL I duplicated your settings in the Tool Options - Move palette.  Your problem lies in the enabling of the Object Coordinate System.  Uncheck that and try again.

 

Now Unchecked:

 

I'm not exactly sure what the 'Object Coordinate System' is used for, but I do not believe this is enabled by default and I have never used it.  I also can't find anything in the formZ documenation about it so maybe someone else here or Tech can shine some light on that one?

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/assets.autodessys.com/manuals/formz10/formZ_Pro/responsive_html/index.htm#t=07000_Transforming_Objects.html&rhsearch=object coordinate system&ux=search

Cheers.

 

Hi Justin,

I  have attached a screen shot of the response to our question received from Support.

The Object Coordinate System locks the movement of the object to the axes nominated in the Tool Options - Move palette.

I fooled around a bit with this to see what it meant.

It could be quite useful because it relates only to the objects local axes which you can edit with the Edit Axes option.

These local axes can take ANY orientation of course.

Regards,

Grant