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valthewu

Why form•z is not popular any more:

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I have been equally as nervous for years now.  But somehow this software seems to keep slowly developing a little at a time.  For those of us that used it from the beginning we experienced a lot of activity and interaction that came fairly rapidly.  Then things changed for a while.  Now it seems like things come in fits and starts with long periods of inactivity perceived on our part.    It should be noted that their latest addition of Twin Motion and Unreal are a major step toward keeping Form.z relevant in today's world.  They are obviously listening to our requests and I am sure they are working on this interface issue.  It just might not be their top priority for now.  Personally, for me it is more important to have a rock solid program (which includes these issues) and the latest rendering engine so that I can keep my work relevant and competitive.  Not more bells and whistles or a pretty interface.   Those are the things that I convey to ADS, for now.  As long as I can get my work done in an efficient manner I am willing to be patient.  However, I am also not naive, so I do work on other programs just so that I can switch over if need be, which happens now from time to time as I use more outside assets in my work.

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16 hours ago, Mike_Concentric said:

My favorite 2d cad package (PowerCADD) already seems to be on its way out and FormZ is making me nervous, very nervous!

 

To second this, look at that list, sort it by release date:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_computer-aided_design_software

There are other errors in that list, but no one seems to care anyway. I can think of no reason anyone at autodessys spending half an hour at wikipedia to correct something like that.

But this non effort policy is all over the place!

 

Following is a short summary of my observations (mac based)

 

on the rise:

blender, Rhino, Bricscad, shapr3d, in 2d: all from affinity

(in general: dedicated and active user user base, fast development, transparent as possible, first they copy, then they surpass competitors)

 

steady:

Cinema4d, Vectorworks, Archicad, maya, Houdini

(loyal user base, steady development, good marketing, open communication)

 

declining in significance:

form•z, lightwave, cobalt, powercadd, turbocad (and many other small companies)

(slow development, no recognisable future goals set, no transparency, rest on the laurels of the past)

 

out of competition (in their own view):

Autodesks products (the Microsoft of CAD, there's is an open letter going around the world), Sketchup, in 2d: adobe in general

(these are only around anymore to make money out of their standards, as intransparent as possible, but heavily cloud- and paying plan dependent)

This is the grave of any software development. form•z will not fall into that category, because they did not establish any standard.

 

i am sure, loyal users will come out again with something like " you can set the palettes right for your personal taste, read the manual, other software is also flawed, you can call support, I do not mind about some icons, there is always version XY to fall back, etc etc..."

It is embarrassing! Don't you want more new users of your "trusted software"? Does not sound like it!

The goal should be set: als easy as Sketchup, as precise and versatile as rhino, as customisable as cinema4d, all that communicated as transparent as blender! 

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17 hours ago, Andrew West said:

They are obviously listening to our requests and I am sure they are working on this interface issue.  It just might not be their top priority for now.  Personally, for me it is more important to have a rock solid program (which includes these issues) and the latest rendering engine so that I can keep my work relevant and competitive.  Not more bells and whistles or a pretty interface.

You are addressing all the problems here, but you do not seem to get the whole picture:

"obviously listening" = "I do not know for sure, but it seems so." (bad communication from ADS)

"this interface issue":  this is a mayor issue in my opinion: even the long time users do not understand the problem, maybe just because they are long time users.

"rock solid program": I would not exclude all those small errors from quality check only because crashing all the time is even more annoying.

"Not more bells and whistles or a pretty interface." Form follows function! We should know that and ADS should know as well! I never said I just demand a prettier UI!

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I chose FormZ many years ago because it was on the mac and thought it was the best out of a pile of other software I had worked on.

Guess what? I would still choose FormZ over the rest even with it's quirks and shortcomings. I continue to make a living from it as my main package and would recommend it to anyone who wants to get into the 3d modelling business.

I don't have most of the issues others have such as crashing and it's not because I'm an IT expert, 'cos I'm not. In my long time experience, I have found crashing to be caused from imported bad geometry and the such. Bad imported geometry is not necessarily caused by the software it was created on but mostly the creator. 

I agree that the interface needs some work in FormZ, mainly pallets arrangement etc., but I actually like the look and feel/icons etc., call me what you want. I'm actually excited about the dark mode in the next iteration.

valthewu, I think you think you're just trying to help but tbh I think you are just making this forum a depressing place (sorry, most of your 10 posts have been negative). We'd all love to see FormZ doing well and competing with the big boys especially since we've invested in Fz (Just to point out FormZPro is a LOT less expensive than other software it's being compared to on this forum, I mean C4D is $3500, Max $1545 per year and without add ons!, Revit $2310 per year, SU $695 but isn't a patch on Fz). But I think ADS has done remarkably well considering who they compete with.

I think the future is brighter for FormZ with the Twinmotion integration (along with the existing Vray & Maxwell).

Everyones opinion is important here, but lets be more positive about FormZ, it has a hell of a lot more positives than negatives. Lets do more of sharing 3d modelling knowledge, WIPS etc. (if I was considering Fz as a new user, I wouldn't buy it based on all the moaning about it here which obviously doesn't help marketing). ADS have given us this forum for our own benefit to learn etc., not as a rooftop to shout from.

Dezzz

😉

 

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The issue is this dialog that I guess many longtime users have experienced;

Script:

 

Actor 1:

„What 3D Software are you using“

 

Grumpy old man:

„FormZ“

 

„Oh, what’s this ?“

 

„It’s software I can do a lot of cool stuff with; like ….this…that…also this …and even that too, plus this…., and… „(Continues)

 

„WTF - awesome - why didn’t´I even know about FormZ?“

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3 hours ago, Des said:

valthewu, I think you think you're just trying to help but tbh I think you are just making this forum a depressing place (sorry, most of your 10 posts have been negative). We'd all love to see FormZ doing well and competing with the big boys especially since we've invested in Fz (Just to point out FormZPro is a LOT less expensive than other software it's being compared to on this forum, I mean C4D is $3500, Max $1545 per year and without add ons!, Revit $2310 per year, SU $695 but isn't a patch on Fz). But I think ADS has done remarkably well considering who they compete with.

Rhino is equally priced, but anyway: ok, I'll try to be positive:

There is a niche for form•Z in the future, I do not have a doubt about that! The viewport itself feels responsive, intuitive, the display options are great, it seems light and something about it does feel positively retro (being not to complicated and straightforward). 

I just think it needs a certain push forward, and inspirations for that should come from (new) users as well.

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5 hours ago, valthewu said:

The goal should be set: als easy as Sketchup, as precise and versatile as rhino, as customisable as cinema4d, all that communicated as transparent as blender! 

This plus the ability to produce solid 2d documentation is the potential that I saw and have been sticking around for.

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On 2/26/2021 at 7:52 AM, Des said:

I chose FormZ many years ago because it was on the mac and thought it was the best out of a pile of other software I had worked on.

Guess what? I would still choose FormZ over the rest even with it's quirks and shortcomings. I continue to make a living from it as my main package and would recommend it to anyone who wants to get into the 3d modelling business.

I don't have most of the issues others have such as crashing and it's not because I'm an IT expert, 'cos I'm not. In my long time experience, I have found crashing to be caused from imported bad geometry and the such. Bad imported geometry is not necessarily caused by the software it was created on but mostly the creator. 

I agree that the interface needs some work in FormZ, mainly pallets arrangement etc., but I actually like the look and feel/icons etc., call me what you want. I'm actually excited about the dark mode in the next iteration.

valthewu, I think you think you're just trying to help but tbh I think you are just making this forum a depressing place (sorry, most of your 10 posts have been negative). We'd all love to see FormZ doing well and competing with the big boys especially since we've invested in Fz (Just to point out FormZPro is a LOT less expensive than other software it's being compared to on this forum, I mean C4D is $3500, Max $1545 per year and without add ons!, Revit $2310 per year, SU $695 but isn't a patch on Fz). But I think ADS has done remarkably well considering who they compete with.

I think the future is brighter for FormZ with the Twinmotion integration (along with the existing Vray & Maxwell).

Everyones opinion is important here, but lets be more positive about FormZ, it has a hell of a lot more positives than negatives. Lets do more of sharing 3d modelling knowledge, WIPS etc. (if I was considering Fz as a new user, I wouldn't buy it based on all the moaning about it here which obviously doesn't help marketing). ADS have given us this forum for our own benefit to learn etc., not as a rooftop to shout from.

Dezzz

😉

 

If I remember correctly $3,500 was for the full blown "studio" version.

I had the base package and it was about $900. from what I remember.

Did everything I needed and more.

It's still my favorite sub-d program.

But now C4D has apparently done away with actually "owning" the software. It's available now as a monthly or yearly subscription.

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Posted (edited)
On 2/26/2021 at 7:52 AM, Des said:

Revit $2310 per year

I don't understand this comparison. Are you suggesting that FormZ can compete with what Revit can do, thus making Revit seem super expensive? I've been teaching myself FZ for a bit but am I missing it's true BIM capabilities in regards to what Revit can do? Yes, Revit is a bit pricey but it seems to offer more than just architectural modeling, rendering and sheet layouts. I mean it's an Apple to Orange comparison imo.
It's a great comparison to SketchUp, which I like and use a lot. To me Form Z Jr is a great comparison to SketchUp Pro. It's still $495 (what SU used to be) and it includes things that SU Pro does NOT included; subdivision tools, nurbs, included architectural tools, AO display, etc. All of these have to be added into SU and most cost extra.
That SU has moved to a subscription model is NOT a surprise to anyone that has worked with Trimble before!

Edit: " (3D) Max $1545 per year ...., Revit $2310 per year " No one pays separately for these. The AEC Collection is $2,965/year that has both of these as well as ALL of the other CAD/Civil products included. Not sure if this was your point. If not then I apologize.

Edited by f700es
Addition

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The point I was making is that we shouldn't be making the comparisons that are so often with other packages on this forum. My apologies if that wasn't clear or if the prices I mentioned are not correct ( I did a quick google search). Anyway, I think that the likes of those other 3d packages are exorbitant for people (freelancers) in the arch viz industry. I certainly could not afford to be paying such large amounts per year for something like revit and max. FormZ does a lot for what we pay for (for me anyway), but I see others here constantly comparing it to other softwares which cost a lot more and have an inferior modelling tool set imho. Yes, some may do other things better than FormZ (drafting) but for me it's 3d tools are incredible for what I pay for (as an all round 3d modelling package anyway).

Anyway, I've caused this to go off on a tangent with my previous post by making comparisons by which I was trying to make the point of not making comparisons, so my bad. 😕 Ok, I'm confused now...

More coffee...

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While you all are mentioning it, my company gives me that AEC suite from AD. And Maya and the engineers use SW. Nice, but in practice, formZ is basically the "brain" program for an octopus of functionality. I do just about everything in formZ, then if I need Revit, for Families, I go there. Need Maya, no prob. Even bring in Solidworks with STEP to make Revit Families. I think the reality of today's work is that you need various apps, but I still find formZ a clear winner for the returns.

At least in the manufacturing world, I don't know how someone would do this without formZ. If someone is sitting there trying to do what I do without it, they would be spending a criminal amount of time working with slower tools and doing many more workarounds. The money being saved in this context is substantial. All models accurate and solid! formZ is truly a jewel in the crown of apps when real work is concerned. It's proper place may be in that AEC suite. It works very well with it.

BUT, the idea behind the AEC package is you wind up paying a big yearly fee to these other guys. Past what a freelancer could do. Using those programs, though, and living in the real world, it becomes clear that you need to be able to use whatever end result program you need for whatever project you have. Notice the focus on making a certain amount of income.

It is actually very nice to have a niche place right now where you can still get permanent software and individual attention. The price for the support is very very reasonable.

As far as interface, I have used them all and done real projects and they all have their downs. They also all have forums where somewhere, folk complain about the interfaces.

formZ came from an altruistic pedigree that is different than the commercial giants out there. If there was a humanitarian project in which formZ was needed, formZ was provided for those at no cost. The creators of formZ started as educators and have never been focused on income. They have always been primarily concerned with what we design and build with formZ. That's what they have been watching.

There used to be a very formal architectural forum/blog that would have articles on new buildings, and if formZ was mentioned in the article as one of the apps used, it was included in that particular thread. I can't find this now for the life of me. Does anyone remember that too and know where it is? That blog was always awesome because there were all these new and wonderful buildings that used formZ in the design process somewhere. It was very inspiring.

 

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In other news, but fitting right into this discussion:

Affinity Designer, on sale 50% off: 27,99 €

Affinity Photo, on sale 50% off: 27,99 €

Affinity Publisher, on sale 50% off: 27,99 €

Fast, stable and easy software, with Apple Silicon support results in a forum with 600.000 postings, and being a serious rival for adobe, finally.

I seriously suggest, Serif should buy AutoDesSys. Or at least team up.

Serif would enter the windows world and 3D, also get hold onto dwg, AutoDesSys would gain insight to a modern interface, programming style and integrate extended 2d layout capabilities.

Serif form•z 2023 would cost 99 € / $ and blow sketchup into insignificance.

 

btw, this is serif's mission statement:

 

We started out in 1987 developing creative software for Windows and built up a decent suite of apps over a 20-year period. But there were problems. Apart from these legacy apps being locked into Windows, they were becoming bloated, hard to maintain and the core foundation of them was not built with consideration of the latest developments in hardware.

So, we decided to start again. We threw all that old code away and began development of the Affinity range from scratch. It was a big gamble and turned into a massive project - it took the best part of 5 years from writing the first line of code to releasing Affinity Designer, our first Affinity app, in October 2014.

Since then we’ve not looked back. We’ve now got a full creative suite of applications covering photo editing, desktop publishing and graphic design which have won the biggest awards available in the industry and have been adopted by over a million customers worldwide.

This success has been great, but our main focus remains on pushing the boundaries of what is possible with creative apps. We love doing what we do, and we are just getting started.

 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, valthewu said:

Serif form•z 2023 would cost 99 € / $ and blow sketchup into insignificance.


Interesting idea. I have already posted something similar here in this forum.
However, I suggested a collaboration with the company Ashlar.
From my point of view, the challenges there are similar:
 

 

Edited by AHDD Designer

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3 hours ago, valthewu said:

In other news, but fitting right into this discussion:

Affinity Designer, on sale 50% off: 27,99 €

Affinity Photo, on sale 50% off: 27,99 €

Affinity Publisher, on sale 50% off: 27,99 €

Fast, stable and easy software, with Apple Silicon support results in a forum with 600.000 postings, and being a serious rival for adobe, finally.

I seriously suggest, Serif should buy AutoDesSys. Or at least team up.

Serif would enter the windows world and 3D, also get hold onto dwg, AutoDesSys would gain insight to a modern interface, programming style and integrate extended 2d layout capabilities.

Serif form•z 2023 would cost 99 € / $ and blow sketchup into insignificance.

 

btw, this is serif's mission statement:

 

How interesting, this is my suggestion, more or less,  in the recent past... In posts I commented I suggested to work together with Affinity, because their software/development/concept is an answer in many ways. Good to know more people know about the Affinity suite.

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Actually, here my e-mail I sent to Serif and ADS on 2020.02.26. Only ADS gave me their opinion on the idea.

"Dear CEO of Serif,

I am writing this email because of an idea, a business idea.

As an Affinity package user and being an architect/Interior Architect I also work with FormZ 3D modeller developed by Auto Des Sys (ADS) in the USA for many years. On the ADS forum (forum user Hugo) I mention frequently about the possibility of working together with Serif. Now, I thought, I write this email directly to Serif.

The Affinity Publisher application is so well developed, beautiful GUI and it’s wonderful to work with. The 3D modeller Form Z made by Auto Des Sys is such a brilliant 3D modeller and also wonderful to work with. But, some tools Serif make better, much better, like Publisher.

I am running my own business for more than 26 years now and when started my architect business I decided to work with the Mac for two reasons. The first one in the CAD world not many company’s (at least here in the Netherlands) worked on the Mac at that time and second the publishing/advertisement business produces the best print output. The idea to combine CAD on Mac with high publishing quality to deliver better CAD drawings, became a unique selling point within my work. CAD drawings were not really beautiful because of poor vector orientated. Still today the CAD output is limited.

For this reason I believe it would be interesting for Serif and AutoDesSys to scrutinise working together. 3D modelling by FormZ and 2D layout by Affinity Publisher. Or working together to develop the GUI of the FormZ application by Serif. I believe if Affinity Publisher is able to read vector drawings on scale, most of the work is done.

I hope to hear from you

Kind regards / Gegroet"

 

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I think one issue to consider is: How does ADS move forward with appealing to younger generations without alienating the rest of us?  New users are essential to the future.  Not in just the direct sales, but it is the new users that push the envelope and brag/show their work.  And, in turn show off the capabilities of their tools.

There are some details in which the original poster is correct on.  And if ADS replied a bit defensively, I can't really blame them either.  He/She was a bit of a prick about it.

Point out the issues, fine! (as he/she did so)  But to throw a tantrum dance around those issues... well... prick comes to mind.  (kleiner Schwanz)  But, then again, look at me here, I am being a prick right back.  Everybody has the right to be offended, so F the f off!  (just a joke folks, though I was being serious about everybody has the right to be offended.)

Regarding the images posted in the OP:

1, yes this could resolve better.

2, I think this is new.  Though, I do not keep old versions to back test against except version 6.7.x   It certainly isn't something I have noticed before.

3, I am missing the problem here.  Ok, the icons themselves don't appeal?  Cry me an H20 Molecule.

4, Not sure, but the blue dots are admittedly rather vague, and the palette is larger than it needs be.   On the second point, this is a modal dialog and thus has no impact on the operation of the program or it's use.  So, is inconsequential IMHO.   And, oddly, my palette of the same looks different.  I have more options.  Not sure what detailed version of the app He/She tested but it is possible that was a bug.

 

Regarding the more detailed points above the images, I will respond to the ones I disagree with.  The others I do agree with.

- bad quality check of functions and tools (unlike rhino)     This needs to be clarified.  Without the specifics this does get into bashing that goes quite well with the tantrum dance later in the post.

- non consistent tool options (unlike c4d) This needs to be clarified.  Without the specifics this does get into bashing that goes quite well with the tantrum dance later in the post.   Don't different tools require different options?  Or should we just have 1 tool and nothing but options.

- interface not customizable enough, even in the pro version (unlike c4d, even rhino!)  I actually, kind of agree here, though much of what we do have now is recent and early on in 9 was a cause of much disruption, but has for the most part stabilized.  Too, I am not sure how much of that is given to the free version vs Pro.   If you used the free version, what do you know of the Pro version?  (admittedly, I know nothing of the free version.)

- very slow development (unlike blender)  Isn't blender open source?  While certainly an issue that ADS has to contend with, this isn't a reasonable comparison.  (I could be wrong)

- slow response to whishes from users (like many other companies, but most of them have a solid plug in/addon source)  This, historically, I fundamentally disagree.  I have put in a great deal of suggestions over the years.  Many of them have been included and included immediately in the beta cycle.  Not every idea that I have pushed their way has been included... but it would be arrogant of me (more than I already am) for me to assume that any and every idea I have fits with the goals and intent of the company.  And quite frankly have any positive impact on other users than myself.   So, sure, they could pack and pack and pack tools... that tends to go against the whole UI argument though.   A better option is the script/plugin where we the users can do what we need for ourselves. This IMHO, has been a long resurrection in coming.  But one I cannot blame ADS for. The API transition is not trivial.    And to be clear, plug-ins have been available throughout, it is only the scripting that has been temporarily though significantly interrupted... But we are on our way back.    Evangelizing by ADS and users to get developers on board, yea, that could use work.

- Some modern aspects of designing 3d like parametric, history- or node-based design (and a proper integrated renderer), which other software solutions have long used, are not covered here anyway!  Parametric, really... Z is parametric.   History/Node... yea I think most of us do wish for that. I suspect that Harkens back to some decisions many years ago.  And is probably deep seeded into the code where such changes would be extremely disruptive at this point.     Proper integrated renderer: Hmmm... My renderer is fully integrated. Albeit Dated since Autodesk purchased it and shelved it for the sole purpose of eliminated or at best hurting competition.   V-ray is now available and there are others (yea, kind of)  but this is an issue that if you want, pony up the cash.

- It is also not enough to offer state of the art technology (like sub-D), the tools have to evolve!  First off, State of the Art sub-D??  Really?  Catmull-clark  sub-D which pretty sure is still what MODO uses (my personal favorite SDS modeler) harkens back all the way back to 1978... Not exactly State of the art.    State of the art would have been T-Splines.  Which ADS was actively working on integrating.  But oops, Autodesk once again to the rescue with a lead life-saver.  Pretty sure they shelved that too.     Lastly on this issue.  fZ isn't a dedicated SDS modeler.  While I personally would like some additional functionality (hell yes, even one tool should be dropped as far as I am concerned.)  So, what can we reasonably expect?  State of the art?  How many other SDS modelers can translate their SDS model to full on Solid object NURBS?  I have no reasonable doubt there aren't any others... I don't think it is many.   Last I looked (and, yes I am a bit out of date)  Modo could not... Can Rhino?  I will have to check, I really don't know.

The rest of the bullet points are fair... at least up to the Tantrum Dance.  At that point, the OP lost reams of credibility.

¢£

P.S.  I don't seem know know what a short story is.

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Dear moderator Chris!

What a nice way to join this discussion! 

Just in case you did not read this sentence, I'll repeat it:

 

"I tried to be friends with form•z since university, from 2000 on. It always seemed capable and even promising back then, but ended up being frustrating and tiresome."

I could not care at all, but instead wrote down my experiences with YOUR preferred software. You might ignore them, read them or even reply. I did not personally insult anyone, it was not my intention to do so. So I think you, as a moderator, should do so as well. Some of the errors I found could have been eliminated instantly, and should have been already. And of course you know that, but instead blame me pointing at them.

Answering your post really annoys me, so I'll try to keep my corrections and addendums short:

- bad quality check of functions and tools: I should narrow that down to ui-design and typographical errors.

- non consistent tool options (unlike c4d)each and every tool has different options in the panel, some even have no options at all, confusing in my opinion, but might get used to it.

- interface not customizable enough, even in the pro version (unlike c4d, even rhino!): for me, this is simply not on par with other software. I tried to change a lot in the pro version in my testing phase, and version 9 seem to address some aspects, but is still not flexible enough.

- very slow development (unlike blender): well, as every paid software will have to compete with free software, it simply is a necessity to develop fast and stable.

- slow response to whishes from users (like many other companies, but most of them have a solid plug in/addon source) : well, if you disagree, ok, it does not seem to be the case for other users.

- Some modern aspects of designing 3d like parametric, history- or node-based design (and a proper integrated renderer), which other software solutions have long used, are not covered here anyway! : by parametric I mean the possibility to stack objects and modifiers like in c4d (or in 3ds max) for example. The renderer: well, ok, it is an addon.

- It is also not enough to offer state of the art technology (like sub-D), the tools have to evolve!  : I meant "state of the art" (or at least newer) at the point of integration into the software and refinement afterwards: did the sub-d tools evolve after that? 

I do not get you at the tantrum dance nor does it interest me any more to deal with you in any way, just one comment

You asked "How does ADS move forward with appealing to younger generations without alienating the rest of us?" The answer:

ADS will not at all, but you will not ether.

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valthewu,

Whew,  "moderator" is a bit of a misnomer and a serious exaggeration in my case.  All I am given access to is to moderate the form•Z LAB, Plugins and Scripts Forum and my own posts well after the fact. (Given access to these for reasons, I don't feel compelled to over explain at this point) I do not have access posts outside of those conditions.  i.e. I cannot moderate or modify this thread even if I wanted to.   Though, it is completely understandable why the error in perception was made.  

To further clarify, should there be any question:  I am NOT an employee of ADS nor do I represent them in any way. If I were, I wouldn't be under my own name as you may note; anything that comes from ADS does not come from an individual.

You do make a valid point.  Due to the overstated classification of "moderator" and my inability to STFU.  ADS has the option to pull my status or even ban me outright.  If they did, I could not blame them in either case. (I really don't represent them, nor should anybody think I do) While I hope they do not.  It is their software and their forum, after all.

I apologize if I came off as being offended.  I am not, nor was I.   If you read carefully my text, I only wrote on points where I disagreed and even somewhat disagreed..  Many of your points I not only find valid, but actually agree and I noted that.  There are a number of areas that ADS needs to address.  Just not all the ones you attempted to point out. I tried to lay those out methodically.   There are a number of issues they need to address that you didn't point out.One last thought of my own.  

 

Quote

I do not get you at the tantrum dance

Interested or not.   A tantrum dance is cute. The first 6 seconds of the following is proof of that.

 

I am the penultimate Kleiner Schwanz. ( I just offended myself, what do I do now?  Answer: Tantrum Dance!)

 

I had read and responded, but decided a rare bit of constraint might be in order, so I removed the rest, but have a remaining thought of my own.

If you are so happy with your other software, then why are you so software nomadic? Too bad you won't be able to see that question.  I am genuinely curious.

¢hristopher ∂avid £und

 

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