Polygon cages for smoothing

[¢hris £und]

Oh, I meant to say that it is NOT for the hobbyist.   The hobbyists are the ones who have time to produce tutorials and free meshes etc...  Pros are busy.   With the other apps, it is often the hobbyists who produce the tutorials, models, and such.   Hobbyists flocked to the free and cheap stuff.

Now that I am more of a hobbyist, I have more time to help out.

True, there was more content put out by ADS in the early days.  And, agreed, there could/should be more work done there.

With the advent of 7.x+  I think that ADS attempted to put a friendlier look onto the application.  Which may be interpreted as looking more hobbyist, And may have had a bit of a backfire effect from the intent.   However, with the work that they are putting into the interface with v9, I think this is a big help.  Same essential look, but it is allowing the flexibility that Pro's need.   It will always be a work in progress.

[¢hris £und]

Here is an SDS version, made all in fZ 9.042 back saved to 8.6

The locations where the indents meet the label area needs more work.  The Polygon flow isn't correct.  But it is a good start/indication.

Coke Bottle2.86.fmz

 

It wasn't too bad, but I think this is a case where Des's method would be faster.

Edited June 4, 2020 by ¢hris £und

[Des]

Thanks for posting that Chris, the sub-D method gives better results, the geometry just looks better.

When I tried the other splines/nurbs method, I had initially wanted to do a sub-D of 1/8 of the revolve created from the swept splines but couldn't spend more time on it so used nurbs in the end. If I get time later I'll try to do a combination of the two maybe.

Just wondering if anyone has an actual classic coke bottle at hand that they could measure accurately and post the sizes here? I think the exercise here is to be able to model it accurately so we'll need measurements.

I'd be interested to see this exercise develop to a conclusion of the nicest (not necessarily the quickest) method.

[FZnoob]

I did this Coke bottle with sub-d as a bit of a personal challenge. It's a 20 oz plastic bottle, and is a little different that the glass one.

The real kicker was the bottom. Took me a little while to figure it out

 

[¢hris £und]

FZnoob,

What is your name?   Nice work!

Here is the updated bottle, where the poly flow is corrected.  My first attempt, I made it harder than it should have been.

I will make a tutorial.  My audio capture sucks on my computer, so I ordered a podcasting Mic.  I should have it tomorrow.

New Bottle.Copy2.fmz

[SJD]

thank you both, these are really useful 😎

as mentioned, I'm a complete novice at more complex aspects of 3D modelling.

would it be fair to say that there are 2 approaches to this - NURBS or subdivision/polygon modelling?

I'm having some success at using NURBS thanks to Des's help and I'm beginning to get a deeper understanding of what they are and what can be achieved in FormZ. Subdivisions are proving to be more problematic. I can see how they are totally dependent on the quality of the quad mesh that is being used. I've also been trying out Sub D in a Cinema 4D demo which seems to give you far more control over the construction of meshes and the ability to create complex forms.

Whilst the Sub D tools are powerful in FZ and are great for quickly blocking out basic forms I'm struggling to see how they could be used on more complex shapes (although I can see that converting the forms to NURBS for further work could be very useful). I'm not knocking FormZ, just trying to establish where it's strengths and limitations lie as with all software.

[FZnoob]

38 minutes ago, ¢hris £und said:

FZnoob,

What is your name?   Nice work!

Here is the updated bottle, where the poly flow is corrected.  My first attempt, I made it harder than it should have been.

I will make a tutorial.  My audio capture sucks on my computer, so I ordered a podcasting Mic.  I should have it tomorrow.

New Bottle.Copy2.fmz

Ken here bro. I am technically a graphics guy, but 3D modeling has been part of my skillset since about 1998

[FZnoob]

5 minutes ago, SJD said:

thank you both, these are really useful 😎

as mentioned, I'm a complete novice at more complex aspects of 3D modelling.

would it be fair to say that there are 2 approaches to this - NURBS or subdivision/polygon modelling?

I'm having some success at using NURBS thanks to Des's help and I'm beginning to get a deeper understanding of what they are and what can be achieved in FormZ. Subdivisions are proving to be more problematic. I can see how they are totally dependent on the quality of the quad mesh that is being used. I've also been trying out Sub D in a Cinema 4D demo which seems to give you far more control over the construction of meshes and the ability to create complex forms.

Whilst the Sub D tools are powerful in FZ and are great for quickly blocking out basic forms I'm struggling to see how they could be used on more complex shapes (although I can see that converting the forms to NURBS for further work could be very useful). I'm not knocking FormZ, just trying to establish where it's strengths and limitations lie as with all software.

C4D is my all time favorite 3D software! I used it for quite a number of years. I would still be doing so, but my current employer uses FZ, so I just learned to love it.

Matter of fact I have sort of become the main  "instructor" at the Enterprise level. Which I would not have thought could ever happen as I absolutely hated FZ the first few months I used it.

[SJD]

hey Ken

I really like the look of C4D - it has some methods that feel a bit strange at first but I'm getting used to it. The wide availability of good quality tutorials is a real plus and the whole motion graphics thing really appeals to me.

I also love FZ, it's kept me in business for over 20 years and I've yet to see any other software that I'd feel as comfortable with for exhibit and corporate interior design. I'm a designer first and foremost and the visualisation side has always been a means to an end so I've never learnt more than I needed to. That said, the time has come to increase my skill set since the collapse of the events industry. I'll not stop using FZ and I'll probably invest in V-ray too. I'm just trying to decide whether FZ is the right software to delve deeper into in order to present myself as a competent 3D artist 

[Des]

That's excellent Chris, thanks for taking the time to do this and for posting it. Yes, I'd love to see your workflow so when you have time, post your method.

The first thing I did when I downloaded your model was to do a sub-division swap to see the frame.

 

Cheers,

 

Des

[SJD]

Hi all

I've been working with the SDS for a few hours now - is it better to work with a basic blocked out polygon form and then refine in the Sub D mode using the Sub D tools? It kinda feels that way.

If it is then it would seem to be the opposite approach to much of what I've seen and read elsewhere which is to model almost exclusively in poly mode to get an accurate form and then apply the smoothing (checking as you go). Whilst this might seem more time consuming it does yield far more control over the results. 

[SJD]

re: swap tool

if I'm working on a shape and have refined certain edges and faces using the hardness tool and then use the swap tool to check the poly shape underneath, I find all the changes have been reset when I switch back - is this correct behaviour? 

[FZnoob]

2 hours ago, SJD said:

Hi all

I've been working with the SDS for a few hours now - is it better to work with a basic blocked out polygon form and then refine in the Sub D mode using the Sub D tools? It kinda feels that way.

If it is then it would seem to be the opposite approach to much of what I've seen and read elsewhere which is to model almost exclusively in poly mode to get an accurate form and then apply the smoothing (checking as you go). Whilst this might seem more time consuming it does yield far more control over the results. 

Yes, I switch back and for between the sub-d mode and swap.

In addition to using the sub-d "controls" you can also select points directly on the geometry using the"pick tool" set to point mode.

I really don't care for the sub-d controls. Feels sort of like a puppet on a string but I have gotten used to it.

[FZnoob]

1 hour ago, SJD said:

re: swap tool

if I'm working on a shape and have refined certain edges and faces using the hardness tool and then use the swap tool to check the poly shape underneath, I find all the changes have been reset when I switch back - is this correct behaviour? 

That doesn't happen to me. The "edge hardness" is retained even after swapping back and forth.

One thing that DOES occur is if you apply mapping to a face in sub-d, the mapping is lost when you swap it back to a poly

[SJD]

cheers Ken

the edge hardness is retained if I apply it to the whole object but not if I apply it to a certain face or edge only - not sure why but it's frustrating

yes, I try to work up the underlying poly model first but options seem so much more limited than say C4D. That's why I wondered if FZ's way is to use the SDS tools instead. Only problem I find with using the SDS tools at the moment is the mess it creates of the poly model underneath. From what I understand, a nice flowing quad mesh is essential for good results. I know I'm a complete noob at this but FZ's approach seems completely at odds with the rest of the sub d modellers and ultimately looks limited because of it

[FZnoob]

16 minutes ago, SJD said:

cheers Ken

the edge hardness is retained if I apply it to the whole object but not if I apply it to a certain face or edge only - not sure why but it's frustrating

yes, I try to work up the underlying poly model first but options seem so much more limited than say C4D. That's why I wondered if FZ's way is to use the SDS tools instead. Only problem I find with using the SDS tools at the moment is the mess it creates of the poly model underneath. From what I understand, a nice flowing quad mesh is essential for good results. I know I'm a complete noob at this but FZ's approach seems completely at odds with the rest of the sub d modellers and ultimately looks limited because of it

Yes a quad mesh is preferable. I actually had this discussion with a FZ Mod at one point. One of their tuts shows an area divided into triangles.

That's always a no-no in my book because triangles can't be further subdivided. You essentially paint yourself into a corner.

[SJD]

cheers Ken

from what I can glean from all tutorials I have seen (many by pros) is that quality flowing Quad meshes are essential for good results. You should never have anything else. What I am struggling with is that in nearly all the tutorials I have seen, the underlying mesh bares a strong resemblance to the finished form (the final form is achieved with smoothing/rounding) - something I am finding impossible with FZ. It seems like FZ has a completely different approach which looks great for quickly blocking out loose forms but very unwieldy for accurate detail

[SJD]

here's a rather poor example of my efforts so far

I've been trying to model in an item of furniture - I have the professional model that I purchased sometime ago and the ultimate goal is to recreate it accurately using SDS, I'm not sure how I'd do it with NURBS. I guess it looks ok so far but it's a long way off being an accurate representation. I tried to model in a fairly accurate poly model first but gave up because I couldn't get the subtle forms I think I need without messing up the topology. So I tried a simpler approach using the sub d tools - the main chair is fairly straight forward but the arms and the join are more of a problem. I've used the bridge tool which works kind of. However, the real problem I am finding is getting any kind of accuracy - it's very much guesswork and trial and error at the moment using the sub d tools. The underlying form is a mess though

 

 

[FZnoob]

Anywhere you don't have a continuous "loop" you are going to get triangles. Like on the arm of your chair.

[SJD]

Hi Ken

yes, understood - however, the main chair and sides were simple rectangular forms to begin with (no offset segments etc.) - the odd topology has been caused by manipulating the sub d shapes with the sub d tools. That's my point really, I think you need to work with the poly forms almost exclusively to create clean meshes which isn't that easy in FZ

[SJD]

ok, I see what you mean re: arm of the chair...that's where I differenced the main block to create the angle back. That said, I find the reshaping tool stops working if the basic form has been manipulated too much - probably my own fault because I've twisted the geometry at some point

[SJD]

maybe it's just me (maybe I'm too old for this!). Having said that I'd have thought there would have been many more examples in the gallery over the past 6 years or so if it was easy

I am having a lot more success in C4D - I will post at some point if that doesn't upset anyone. 

[SJD]

one more and I'm done for now

here's my work flow...

2 x simple polygon shapes > subd applied > bridge tool used to connect arm to body > resulting underlying cage is messy.

if I divide the subd form a couple of times it does resolve the poly mesh but it seems a bit pointless as I only have limited tools to edit it

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by SJD

[johnalexander1571]

SJD.

I am quite impressed. You have the first rule of modeling down. If at first you don't succeed try again. If that doesn't do it, then try again. Eventually you learn all the insane little nuances you have to know to make any specific object. Hardly one recipe fits, and there's probably two ways of doing. Kudos to you for knowing that building a pyramid is years of moving large bricks. If you have that, in a year you will look back and see how far you've come solving your own issues albeit with good advice from others.

 

form.Z is the better way to go for real world sizing and manufacturing, you just have to keep at learning.

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by johnalexander1571

[SJD]

Hi John

pardon me for saying so but I find your remarks slightly patronising. Yes, I am new to this side of modelling and eager to learn but I am also keen to put in the hard work and share my experiences in the hope it might help others. I am more than happy to ask the stupid questions so others don't have to 😎. I'd be delighted if, one day, I too could produce some tutorials to help others in our small online community so I can put something back.

For what it's worth, this is what I've been doing with FormZ for the past 20 odd years (and 10 years before that with marker pens) - I'm a designer, so the visualising is a secondary skill. Still, I think it's a pretty decent selection of work (all modelled and rendered in FormZ)

https://stevejonesdesign.co.uk

thanks Steve

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by SJD