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Mac FZPro and Windows10 FZPro


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I am really not wanting to start this post, because the Mac vs PC debate is very personal to alot of folks. Having said that, I am a FormZ user since 1995 and have always had great success on the MacPro platform, including the MacBookPros, until the past 3 or 4 years as Apple has abandoned the pro hardware platform.

At least that's my perspective. You might not agree.

 

I am seriously looking at switching over to a PC based hardware system for my business, and I'm very curious to hear what PC users of FormZ are experiencing these days with the software. I also use Maxwell and am interested in the possible performance increase that comes with the PC and CUDA support.

 

I am hoping this doesn't turn into a shouting match, but perhaps those of us here who have made the switch to PC, run both platforms with FormZ or have some insight into stability, render-capabilities and complex modeling procedures might offer some professional thoughts.

 

With v9 looming, I have no idea what we should expect from ADS, but I know they have the best support and software out there, imho.  I simply love to work in the software when every facet, tool and render is performing well.

 

How is network rendering with the PC? Do any PC users use the Imager? How is it performing? Any thoughts would be appreciated, and please be respectful...we are all FormZ'ers first.   :)

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Andrew

I switched from Mac to PC decades ago and I did so for reasons that are now pretty obsolete.  I wanted to use other 3D software that was not available in MAC format like 3ds MAX.  The reason at the time was that Form.z did most things well but other software had certain traits that just weren't available yet on Form.z.  Fast forward a few years and now Form.z does almost everything that I could want with a few exceptions.  I don't use Max very often any more but when I do I am so grateful that I can easily transfer files back and forth between computers easily and seamlessly.  Do keep in mind that PC's and Mac's still have trouble communicating with each other.  Macs communicate really well with each other and PC's not so much.  Networking can be a real issue at times. Steve Jobs built that into the system by design. 
As to your general questions:  I do not use imager so I can not comment there.  I do network computers together for Maxwell renders which is pretty easy but I find it is best to save yourself some trouble and just use a render farm like Rebus when tackling a complex render in Maxwell.  As for PC vs MAC the distinction has grown almost negligible at this point.  You will adapt quickly.  There are quirks with each system and once you find them and learn to live with them you will be much happier.  There is no perfect platform out there so let that go right now. 

Form.z works equally as well on either system.  The things to keep in mind for me are third party programs that only work on PC.  For me I am talking about X-frog, 3ds Max , Vue x Stream, Z Brush and Onyx tree along with a few others. They may be available on MAC platform at this time but I don't know since I already own them.  I also use a lot of third party models from 3D Sky that are only available in FBX format and I often have to open them in MAX to get them to convert properly over to FMZ.   A couple other issues:  when it comes to stability nothing beats a MAC but PC's have come a very long way.  Restarting your computer or program usually solves most issues.  Speed is better on a PC because you can buy a faster processor and faster graphics card for a lot less $$$$ than a MAC.  PC's are just less expensive and faster in general when comparing dollar for dollar.  As for CUDA you can forget about that for now when dealing with Maxwell.  Last I heard the render capabilities under CUDA were limited to a very small pixel ratio.  Nothing even remotely  presentable by any means.  I personally wasted $700 on a GTX1080 card in hopes that it would speed up Maxwell only to find out that I was limited to 1000 pixels wide on my render.  Worthless.  Hopefully that will change soon if there is enough interest shown by users. 

I could go on and on about my frustrations and joy about each system.  In the end I believe that Apple is abandoning the MAC workstation and focusing on smaller personal devices as their future.  PC's will be around forever and continue to become faster and more stable workstations.  If you  consider one I would highly recommend working with either BOXX or @Xii computers.  I have both and their tech support is fantastic.One last word of advice: if you choose a PC do not get distracted by the number of Cores on the processor.  I have a duel Xeon 2.6GHZ 20 core system that renders really fast which is nice.   Unfortunately my 6 year old 4 core 3.6 ghz i7 machine actually models much faster.  When modeling the program does not seem to  use more than one core.  Tech- Correct me if I am wrong.

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My post reflects the low maintenance, low cost , (used market), approach to Macs and PCs.  The end of Mac work stations has seemed evident yet I was pleasantly surprised to find PC GPUs can actually work in my 2012 MacPro. I don’t use photorealistic rendering but wanted better full-shaded-rendering, but for work mode uses,  to quickly switch between transparency and opacity, back and forth, just as formZ’s latest versions offer, (without need to change each Material).  I got a cheap, used TitanX, 12GB, which does this quickly and well.  There is also a CUDA driver for Mac, but with a one further caveat. Apparently, after a long support session with Nvidia, (they kindly support used TitanXs on Macs), I have learned it is only the very latest Titans, (Pascals at high prices), which are fully supported in Macs, but only with Sierra.  Nevertheless, Nvidia has an ever new driver which fixed my first and only GPU crash, for the older Titan (on my older Mac). This unburdens me from greater costs, and additional learning curves, for the time being. (The change of keyboards alone, would be my dreaded switch to PC).

 

The mere fact that MacVidCards sold their factory-new TitanX (Maxwell the card, not the Maxwell the software), sold as a compatible Mac card, got me going on this.  So there are indeed surprises in the computer modeling world, because it is actually the modelers who are treated with obsolescence!  This remains my greater focus, as artificial intelligence is given all the development capitol, of this world. Creative modeling is left to small businesses which are increasingly crowded out of the markets.

 

My suspicions are now aroused that the new 5G networks may further complicate the heavy duty computing world, but with remote processing power, to replace remote work station offices. It is not clear to me whether  remote work stations will be advanced much at all, seeing that the PC processors have not really exceeded the limitations of silicon chips, which are now stalling at around 4 GHz, for Intel, why then?  In the past 5 years chip speed for remotely used PCs has not climbed as fast as in decades past. I expect it has stopped. We have never seen parallel processing for booleans, etc…   I say that all the development capitol is going to centralized computing, like D-Wave Quantum Computing. Such that, in coming years, network rendering might be sent out of the A&E offices.

 

Therefore, I am quite content to work with a 25% slower system, while the mega% increase in hired-computer-power will likely come through 5G, etc, etc…. The attainable speeds of long distance communications may yet soon exceed the desktop by leaps and bounds.  Meanwhile I can focus on my imperfect, intuitional creativity, with formZ. ^__^

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Andrew-

 

I'm in the same position as you are.  My 2010 Mac Pro has been fantastic with 12 - 3.46 Ghz cores and 24 threads, but it is getting a bit long in the tooth for professional work with 100% reliability.  7 years is a long time for a computer when you use it as hard as we do for 3D modeling and rendering, which just goes to show how awesomely built these old Mac Pro towers were.  An avg PC life is much lower.  Unfortunately, Apple has abandoned us, and although it looks like they may release another Pro machine in 2018, I wouldn't bother waiting.  I also need a laptop for working while we travel, and I refuse to buy a new Macbook Pro, with its gimmicky touch bar, lack of USB ports, and most importantly, lack of a NVIDIA graphics card, which I use for rendering quickly in Thea and ... Beta testing VRay ...  CUDA is only supported on NVIDIA cards which are not likely to be offered on any new Mac anytime soon.  You can install a couple of NVIDIA cards in the older Mac Pro towers to get CUDA support, but how long do you want to keep putting money into a 7 year old platform?  I also hate the new iPhone's lack of a headphone jack, so I'm just planning on leaving their ecosystem altogether.  After a dozen or so years using Apple electronics almost exclusively, this is a big undertaking.  But I've been running Windows 10 on a Bootcamp partition on my Mac Pro, and am happy to report it is much better than I expected.  Sure, there's some things to get used to.  Keyboard shortcuts for example.  Command+C for copy is deeply ingrained, but I found after a couple days CTRL+C became natural again.   My recommendation is to try out a project on Windows before you commit, but I'm actually looking forward to the transition.

 

That comes to the Hardware discussion.  I worked in IT for several years while I was going to college for Computer Science (before my Design degree), and have many hours of hands on experience building, upgrading and fixing computer systems.  I've continued following this as more of a hobby, building computers for friends and family that preferred PCs over the years.  PCs are a lot more value for the money.  Especially now with AMD putting pressure on Intel to bring high core computer systems to the masses at a much lower cost.  Cores are very important for rendering speed when using regular RenderZone or other non GPU renderers.  Maxwell, Thea, VRay, all have engines that run on CPUs as well as GPUs.  However, you need to be mindful to balance the CPU core count with a high frequency clock.  This is because many operations are still only 'single-core' in 3D modeling programs, and is why you need a fast single core speed as well.  This is done on modern CPUs using the 'Turbo' feature which speeds up just 1 or 2 cores as you need it.  Look for 3.5Ghz+ speeds here.  Newer CPU architectures are much faster than the old ones for the same clock speed.  For example my dual 3.46ghz CPUs from 2012, is 50% slower at 'Single-Core' processes than the new 3.5 Ghz AMD Ryzen CPUs.  This will be very noticeable.  

 

AMD's new Ryzen 8-Core CPUs are the sweet spot right now for workstation computers, starting at just $320 for the CPU compared to over $1k for Intel's.  Later this month we will also be getting AMD's new ThreadRipper CPU with 16-Cores and 32-Threads from a single socket.  Price is again expected to be less than half on Intel's.  If you can, wait another week for Computex news, where we will find out specifics and pricing on these powerful new options for workstation computers.  I think having a powerful CPU is still very important, and should not be substituted for a powerful GPU.

 

On the GPU side of things, since you mentioned wanting CUDA support, I can tell you that it is much better on the PC side.  At present time, Thea works great on the Mac side with CUDA support on the old Pro tower, but some other renderers do not, and may not ever be fully supported.  To be fair, Apple hasn't made a computer in a long time that can support an Nvidia GPU, so building new software to support it is not a high priority.  However, you can build a nice PC that will hold 1-4 GPUs for faster rendering in the new GPU accelerated renderers.  You can even get a laptop with very powerful Nvidia GPUs for faster rendering while traveling.  I have not used Maxwell in a while, so I can't speak to it's new CUDA engine option, you should reach out to the Maxwell forum and see what other users have to say.  I heard that it is currently still in it's early stages, and not fully supported.  I have, however, used Thea and VRay with both the CPU and GPU and can tell you that with simple lighting type scenes, GPU is much faster.  In complex scenes with lots and lots of lights or really low indirect light, CPU is still superior.  There is a lot of information out there regarding these differences, and it is important to know there is not a 'one size fits all' solution to rendering.  For some work, CPU makes more sense, and for others GPU will be better.  That said, GPUs are developing at a much faster rate than CPUs have been, so having the option to support GPU rendering, would be a wise decision for future upgrade purchases.

 

Depending on the size scene you are rendering, you may want as much VRAM as you can afford.  The new GPU engines are also getting better at managing the VRAM, so they require less to render the same scenes.  This is all relatively new developments, and in reality 4-6GB of VRAM should be plenty for starting out.  However, even the newer GTX 1070 has 8GB, and would be a great single card option.

 

Network rendering is getting much easier and more reliable on all platforms, and I really wouldn't be too concerned about it.  I use Imager, and have found it runs fine on both, though sometimes saving a PNG file looks different when rendered on the PC vs Mac, but that seems to be just a RenderZone bug.  I'm hoping that Thea and VRAY will support Imager or some sort of batch rendering in the near future since it is a really nice feature I use regularly with RenderZone projects.  

 

If you would like to talk about more details, feel free to email me.  My contact info is on my web site below.

 

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Wow, I am blown away by the quality of thought in this thread, so far. thank you, all. Justin I've built 3 hackintoshes now, and they are all still running after 4 years.  I stopped using my MacPro and started doing everything with a maxxed out mini and maxxed out Macbookpro from 2013.

 

Having said that 7 years is too long, and the latest promise from Apple dont leave me convinced they "get it" or what pros need from them will be profitable. I'm somewhere between Bo and Andrew on the needs scale. I dont mind running behind, as long as I get results and stability.

 

I will look at everybody's suggestions. I've had a look at HP Z8 line which has some impressive specs for the cost, especially their workstation grade laptops. I'd hate to give up Apple's quality, truth be told. The Wollensac Tape Machine Mac Pros were so dependable and like Bo, I upgraded the cards and memory and drives, over the years.

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I just upgraded from a 2012 Mac mini to the fastest quad core iMac (4GHz i7) and I could not be happier.  Good price point for such a fast CPU (for a Mac at least).  I bought a refurbished unit and saved several hundred over a new one. I do not do a lot of rendering however.  My main concern is modeling speed.

 

If I did more rendering I would probably network my older 2012 Mac Mini's or old Mad Pro's.  I would rather have a super fast single thread machine that needs very little maintenance and not bog my one machine down with renders.  I never thought I would buy an iMac again, but Apple leaves me no choice.  I wasn't going to spend $3000+ to turn a MacBook Pro laptop into a desktop (not to mention all the other issues with the new laptops), the Mac Mini is currently a joke for anything high level, and the new Mac Pro had so many graphics problems that I put off buying one.  Not to mention a crazy high price tag.  Even the new price drop didn't change things as the cpus are still from 2013.  I'm could not wait until 2018 or later? for a new Mac Pro.

 

The iMac screen is much less reflective than my old 2010 model which was a mirror.  I run two other monitors with it and it has been a great setup.  Overall I'm very pleased.  I can run Shaded Full with every setting maxed out and walk around the model just fine.  That might change if I had a huge file, but even then I could just dial down the shadow settings a bit.  I thought a lot about a PC change, but love and know Mac OS too well.  The OS is such a critical part of my workflow that it matters a lot.  Mac OS just works...at least most of the time and most problems I encounter can be solved with a quick Google search. 

 

The hackintosh route sounds interesting, but I don't have time to tinker.  

 

Imager is not running well for me at all and I really hope v9 has some improvements in that realm.  

 

Sorry this post had no info for PC use.  Just thought I would say the iMac may work for some users quite well.

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Andrew, 

 

It does appear that Apple has had a change of heart of late.   Took them a while to realize that developers for their mobile devices also like pro machines.   Still will have to wait until presumably fall for an iMac Pro and next year for a real pro tower.

 

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I forgot to mention an interesting little tidbit I discovered when testing Windows 10 on my Mac Pro.  

 

RenderZone is about 20% faster on the same hardware in Windows 10 vs MacOS.  I used the FormZ performance test files provided here - http://forums.formz.com/index.php?/topic/194-performance-test-thread-how-fast-is-your-computer/

 

MacOS fastest time (12-thread) - 9:57

Windows 10 (24-thread) - 8:07

 

Saving nearly 2 minutes on a 10 minute scene with only a software change is pretty significant!  If you use RenderZone exclusively, you would be remiss to not give the Windows version of FormZ a try.

 

That said, RenderZone is getting really old and it is difficult to believe it will have much future use, unless it receives significant improvements.  The other rendering plug-in options are all so much better.  Maxwell is getting faster, Thea is getting more adoption, and VRay is coming... 

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Yes. That's some of the detail I've been wondering about. The increased cores and memory and GPU all add up on the PC side, and Apple doesnt seem to let go of this "lesser power-balanced system" philosophy they've had. Lately I've been using Full Shaded with AO and getting very nice sketchy, yet shadowed looks. I rather like the aesthetic and I believe it communicates design versus 'final design'.

 

I agree Renderzone is aged, but I still think it does a nice job, if AO is used without alot of oversampling. My experience with Maxwell has been great, but the materials and lighting integration drives me crazy with extra hours.

 

Thea was very exciting when I tested it, but now they are not selling it, so whose to say. Maybe thats replacing Renderzone?  : )

 

I think the Vray news is very good, becasue so many architectural and product design pros use it. It would be nice to rough out a dewign and hand it over to a V-ray-er for the final zing.

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