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Texture mapping in 8.6.2 is making me ragey...


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#1 Spannerhead

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Posted 23 June 2018 - 10:08 PM

...what the heck happened?  In 6.x it is so simple:  Textures and decals.  Apply global textures to an object with texture mapping, and then to individual faces with decals.  I could---and did frequently---apply multiple decals to a face. 

 

I design point-of-purchase displays for a living so I use the heck out of this feature.

 

Where is the decal tool in 8.6.2?  Please tell me they didn't do away with it.  If the new version doesn't have a comparable function, it will be borderline unusable for me.  And please don't tell me to create a separate object, apply the texture to that and group it.  I want to be able to create a piece of translucent acrylic, for instance, and apply 3 different brand logos, screen-printed, on it.  One object.  In 6.x this is easy as cake.

 

Sorry for the rant.  It just seems like they took something that was "fixed" and broke it for no reason.  Thanks for any and all help.


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#2 AndyD

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Posted 24 June 2018 - 01:56 AM

Hi,

 

Decals are in this Workspace:

 

 

 

 

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  • Decal Workspace.jpg


#3 Spannerhead

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Posted 24 June 2018 - 05:23 PM

Thank you Andy.

 

Guess I'm going to have to get used to this Workspace thing.  Really confused as to why they had to complicate what was a beautifully simple control layout...


Edited by Spannerhead, 24 June 2018 - 05:24 PM.


#4 FZnoob

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 05:33 AM

The entire "decal map" thing needs to go away. 

We should be able to apply any map in the same workspace, and see it real time without the need to render it.

FZ also needs to support Photoshop layers.

 



#5 Justin Montoya

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 05:36 PM

Decals are really just a workaround for proper modeling and mapping.  They don't work in OpenGL based Shaded modes, nor VRAY, nor any other rendering engine but RenderZone.  If you're happy with the old school results of RenderZone, feel free to keep using them.  You can customize your main workspace to add these tools and any others using the Tool Manager under Workspace>Tool Manager, without having to ever switch workspaces again (I never have to anymore).   I agree, the workspaces UI concept should be abandoned for a more modern UI.

 



#6 Spannerhead

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 06:51 PM

I agree that being able to see decals in Shaded Mode would be wonderful.  But the lack of ability to see them in any mode but RenderZone shouldn't be cause to do away with the function entirely.  Why not just FIX the issue so they can be previewed in those modes?  Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, STS.

 

I'm perfectly satisfied with RenderZone's rendering quality, otherwise I wouldn't have purchased the whole package...  I work in the POP display industry, and I don't have the luxury to let VRay or Keyshot sit and churn for 30 minutes.  RenderZone powers through exactly what I need in less than half the time.

 

If, as you say, "Decals are really just a workaround for proper modeling and mapping," how would you map the attached WITHOUT decals?  Packaging labels on clear water bottles, screen printed translucent panels, etc.

 

Honestly curious.  Learn me.  :)

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  • EthosWater.jpg


#7 Spannerhead

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 10:41 PM

Justin,

 

Thanks for the tip about Tool Manager also!  I moved all my rendering tools over to the main workspace.  Appreciated!



#8 snow

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 01:19 PM

I like the way C4D handles "decals"... you are simply able to have textures overlap each other.  The "non-decal" is tiled, the "decal" doesn't tile and you can adjust it on your object accordingly.  This would be a welcomed addition to formZ. 


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#9 Justin Montoya

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 02:25 PM

Spannerhead-

 

I agree that Decals could have much better usefulness if they were also rendered in Shaded view and VRay.  FormZ = Flexibility.  There's often more than one way to do what you want with the power and flexibility of FormZ.

 

I would use Transparency Maps in place of your Decals.  I use this function a TON when placing logos on walls, signs, surfaces, etc... inside my branded environment designs.  It goes something like this...

 

First, you create your new logo Material with the appropriate logo file (Tiff or PNG), and set it's transparency to use the same image file's Alpha channel (If the logo doesn't have an Alpha Channel, go into Photoshop and create it.)  Now you have a material with the logo cutout.  FormZ logo example attached.

 

Then, make a plane geometry on top of your bottle surface, or wrapping the bottle like in this example.  Keep the plane just from touching the bottle, .01 tends work easy for keying this in quickly.  

 

Now turn OFF shadow casting on your new wrapper.

 

Apply your logo with alpha channel transparency material to the new wrapper.  Adjust mapping as appropriate.

 

Render.

 

bottle-formz-1.effectsResult.jpg

 

This is just a quick and dirty example, but you should be able to get something like this.  I'm using VRay with my 16 core AMD 1950x CPU,  This rendered in exactly 1 minute (time limit set in Vray).  That's plenty fast in my experience, so if you are only avoiding VRay because of the speed, you should reconsider if you have a modern workstation computer.  It's even faster with GPUs, but I turned those off for the simplicity of this example. 

 

You should be able to use the same technique with RenderZone.

 

Here's my files if you want to check it out - https://www.dropbox....-FormZ.zip?dl=0


Edited by Justin Montoya, 27 June 2018 - 02:26 PM.

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#10 Spannerhead

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 02:44 PM

I create transparency maps using the image's alpha channel all the time.  In fact it's how I created the bottle labels in the file I attached above...  Make the image the same height and width as a front view of the bottle and the label will be perfectly positioned once mapped to the dims of the bottle in formZ.

 

I understand the justification for your method from the standpoint of being able to preview the result in Shaded Interactive, but there are some drawbacks:

 

- Every time you want to move the bottle, you now have to move 2 objects instead of 1.  When using the Join tool so that objects can be moved together, properties like texture mapping and shadow casting get funky, in my experience.

- formZ often can't handle offsetting from a complex surface.  A simple bottle is usually OK, but what about a logo on a curved baseball cap?  Or a label on a whiskey bottle?  Etching on a wine glass?

 

Again, I can see some advantages, but to me, the technique you describe just seems to take 3 more steps and involve twice as many objects to achieve the same result as simply mapping a decal...


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#11 Spannerhead

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 02:51 PM

Regarding VRay, as mentioned above, I've been satisfied with my RenderZone speed and quality so I haven't really felt the need to upgrade in that department...  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  :)

 

I'm using a 2011 17" MacBook Pro.  I don't know the processor specs off the top of my head, but it's maxxed out and does just fine.



#12 Justin Montoya

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Posted 27 June 2018 - 06:40 PM

Ctrl+G groups objects together without messing with their texture mapping or shadow casting.  Command+G for Apple is the default shortcut I believe.  


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#13 FZnoob

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 07:11 AM

I like the way C4D handles "decals"... you are simply able to have textures overlap each other.  The "non-decal" is tiled, the "decal" doesn't tile and you can adjust it on your object accordingly.  This would be a welcomed addition to formZ. 

Mapping in C4D is a breeze. I also like it's sub-d modeling tools. Unfortunately, in my current position I am not allowed to use it.



#14 Spannerhead

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 08:43 AM

Ctrl+G groups objects together without messing with their texture mapping or shadow casting.  Command+G for Apple is the default shortcut I believe.  

 

I've noticed that 8.6 moves grouped objects together by default (6.5 doesn't unless you have the "Group" topological level selected).  May have to take advantage of this.

 

 

Mapping in C4D is a breeze. I also like it's sub-d modeling tools. Unfortunately, in my current position I am not allowed to use it.

 

One of my coworkers uses C4D; seems like a nice program.  I do like the ability to choose whether texture maps OR decals are tiled, though.



#15 Spannerhead

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 09:22 AM

Hi again guys.  Thanks again for all your help.  Texture mapping is going pretty well.  Getting used to it.

 

One question at the moment:  When using flat mapping in 6.5 it was possible to set the texture map to automatically size itself to 1 tile across by 1 tile high on an object (see attached image).  Is this possible with 8.6.2?  If so, how?

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  • tiled-mapping-1.jpg


#16 jldaureil

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:20 AM

Hi Spannerhead

 

it was handy :-(
I can set up in version 8 with the tool "edit texture map", (uncheck "lock size")
The "tile" option in the "Edit Texture Map Tool Options" has been removed ...
see attached image
One of those details that annoys me with this version 8
At worst, skip it in Junior but leave the PRO version ALL OPTIONS

 



#17 jldaureil

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:25 AM

sorry there is something wrong

forum soft don't load images pasted in the editing windows

so here as attached piece

 

 

 

+ Wrong massage when loading the image

+ I can't load the image to see it after posted

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  • Textmapdial.jpg

Edited by jldaureil, 26 July 2018 - 10:27 AM.


#18 Spannerhead

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:49 AM

Yeah I don't get it.  It was super handy, especially when mapping product.  I could create the map in Photoshop, import it into formZ and just set it to tile 1:1 on the object.  Done.

 

Now I have to visually guess if my texture map really fits over the whole object...  Annoying.



#19 jldaureil

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 02:04 PM

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're doing.
I have the impression that you prepare your map in photoshop in the proportion of the object that you target ...
For my part, I use it for the mapping of terrain with captured aerial photo on the site of our national service of geography.
It is enough that I know the size (in pixel for example) of my image, I create a corresponding rectangle, then I scale it then I use Get / Set attribute to project on the final mesh.
(it's easier to do than to explain it

I found the new tool "copy attribute" more "simplistic" necessarily ...
(be careful this is not a compliment)
Once again I do not find the new solution better and I explain why:

1- it works in reverse (first the target or targets, then the source)
It does not matter (but not logical for a Frenchman who has the habit of putting the adjective after the name and not the opposite)
But it's related to what I mean:

2- did you understand how you can adjust the copied parameters BEFORE assigning them?
in other words, can we modify the "attributes" before assigning them?

I use very often GET / SET attribute tools to assign multiple attributes simultaneously (surfaces styles (now materials) + layer + texture mapping etc ..)

In other words, how can we assign several attributes temporarily stored in a list (which is very good "GET" attribute in Z673) including the parameters of mapping in one go on several objects or only one of the choice and renew this operation as many time as needed keeping the same setting or modifying some?

With Get / Set attributes I can store a set of parameters to modify them in passing before assigning them multiple or not

In Formz 8 I can use the "attributes" options of the pick tool but I have to start again every time
With the copy attribute tool I do not see how to intervene on the copied parameters ...

 

 

Ps

Image forum : double right click > open in a new tab

it's like in form 8: simpler!


Edited by jldaureil, 26 July 2018 - 02:07 PM.


#20 Spannerhead

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 02:47 PM

No the maps I create in Photoshop don't have to have exactly the proportions as the object I'm mapping onto.  That was the beauty of the 1:1 tile option on the Texture Mapping menu.

 

For example, I'd be designing a display that holds potato chip bags.  There are several different flavors, and I have a map for each flavor.  I could just create the map at whatever size and proportions I choose, import it into formZ and slap it onto the chip bag object at 1:1 without having to position and size like I do now...

 

Really hope that functionality is still present.  Maybe it's just buried somewhere new?






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