Jump to content


Photo

Rounding & Export

rounding facetted polygonal modeling cinema 4d

  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#21 kmwhitt

kmwhitt

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 100 posts

Posted 19 January 2016 - 08:52 PM

Jon - Thanks again.  I really appreciate your time.  So, what your saying is that FormZ now behaves opposite to versions prior to V7?  It was always necessary to convert to faceted or geometry would not export in older versions.   This only confirms for me why I delayed so long getting into the newer versions.  I do not like the fact that they completely removed polygonal modeling with very little control over the resolution of geometry.  Worse yet, converting to polys is not reliable within the app that created them.  I was told more than a year ago they would return some of the older features.  Guess I'll continue to stick with V6.6 for now - a shame as I've been paying for the family plan this whole time.



#22 jonmoore

jonmoore

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 285 posts

Posted 19 January 2016 - 09:18 PM

Tech support might be able to suggest workflows that better suit your needs and my advice is based purely on personal experience but I've always found the mesh conversion tools within FormZ 7 & 8 to lack fine tuning. In all fairness most CAD applications have the same problems converting from Solids/Nurbs to polygons. MOI3d and Rhino do a reasonable job but I have a preference for the Integrityware plugin 'Power Translators that's available for for Modo, Max and Maya (but this is a very expensive option).

 

The Hi Quality smoothing export option from FormZ has worked well for me going into C4D and 3ds Max so don't give up on it yet. However I do agree that it would be good if FormZ regained it's polygonal modelling capabilities in a future revision. They would after all be a good complement to the subdivsion modelling tools introduced in v8.


  • etroxel and kmwhitt like this

#23 Alan Cooper

Alan Cooper

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 473 posts
  • LocationBuckinghamshire, UK

Posted 20 January 2016 - 03:35 AM

Quote from Jon Moore:

 

'Pre meshing in FormZ always creates less than ideal surface shading on curved surfaces when taken into external polygonal packages.' 

 

That is a shame, because even in FormZ we have to change smooth objects to mesh quite often to do successful modifications to a model, like moving of points and edges which refuse to budge when in smooth geometry.

 

I am very much looking forward to when FormZ changes to give the option to create certain geometry as faceted from the start instead of smooth being the only option. I know this is an issue which is to be addressed and Jon's point expresses another reason for our need of it. I wish we could have the benefits of smooth and faceted combined but it seems to be a tall order.


  • kmwhitt likes this

FZ8.5 pro with Renderzone on Windows 7 64bit.

Family Plan.


#24 kmwhitt

kmwhitt

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 100 posts

Posted 20 January 2016 - 05:03 AM

Attached is another simple example.  This time I did not pre-mesh in FormZ prior to export - kept it smooth.  Trying FBX and OBJ with High Quality Smoothing at export, I still have problems in C4D.  TechSupport - I would really appreciate someone showing me how to go about this successfully.  Thank you.

Attached Thumbnails

  • Untitled-21.jpg

Attached Files



#25 jonmoore

jonmoore

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 285 posts

Posted 20 January 2016 - 07:32 AM

Attached is another simple example.  This time I did not pre-mesh in FormZ prior to export - kept it smooth.  Trying FBX and OBJ with High Quality Smoothing at export, I still have problems in C4D.  TechSupport - I would really appreciate someone showing me how to go about this successfully.  Thank you.

 

In all fairness your last model exports perfectly to C4D. And by following the process correctly - using Hi Quality smoothing, you keep the normals tag as that provides the vertex normal information that C4D requires to render the surfaces smoothly.

 

What you have to remember when looking at a model with a wireframe superimposed is that both FormZ and C4D hide the underlying triangle structure of the geometry surfaces (so you can view your model with clarity). In reality all OpenGL rendering looks like an STL file, everything is made up of triangles. The last image below shows the true geometric structure of your model (in both C4D and FormZ). As you can see. It's a single solid model with every polygon aligned.

 

 

15kZY.png

 

183Lj.png

 

1gEQI.png


Edited by jonmoore, 20 January 2016 - 07:34 AM.


#26 Tech

Tech

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,110 posts

Posted 20 January 2016 - 07:45 AM

Hi Kevin,

 

We are seeing what Jon is posting in his posting immediately above (thanks Jon).  If you try what he suggests, can you then get the file imported properly into C4D?



#27 Alan Cooper

Alan Cooper

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 473 posts
  • LocationBuckinghamshire, UK

Posted 20 January 2016 - 08:50 AM

Attached is another simple example.  This time I did not pre-mesh in FormZ prior to export - kept it smooth.  Trying FBX and OBJ with High Quality Smoothing at export, I still have problems in C4D.  TechSupport - I would really appreciate someone showing me how to go about this successfully.  Thank you.

 

Kmwhitt,

 

Have you tried this:

 

Draw your smooth cylinder or smooth 3d circle.

Select the top edge and perform your blend.

Convert to faceted.

Yes, there will be a small area with diagonal facetting.

Select the object and use the unmesh tool on it.

I think you will find that removes the diagonal facetting.

Does it now import properly?


FZ8.5 pro with Renderzone on Windows 7 64bit.

Family Plan.


#28 kmwhitt

kmwhitt

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 100 posts

Posted 20 January 2016 - 08:51 AM

Jon - thanks for the reply.  I am aware that everything comes down to triangles, however, my goal was to get N-gons in C4D.  This way I am able to perform other subdivision operations within Cinema.  Export works perfectly in V6.6.2 regardless of whether or not it's smooth or faceted - see attached.  This is what I am after, but don't think it's possible with the newer versions of FMZ as polygonal modeling has been removed.  I cannot use the normal tags in C4D as they don't play well with Vray (my main render engine).

Attached Thumbnails

  • Untitled-1.jpg


#29 kmwhitt

kmwhitt

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 100 posts

Posted 20 January 2016 - 08:55 AM

Alan - we were posting at the same time.  Yes, that technique does work in V7.3.4 (I don't have the newer 8 here at the office).  Thanks for the suggestion.  Although an additional step, I think I can make this work, however, I wonder how it fairs with more complicated geometry...



#30 Alan Cooper

Alan Cooper

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 473 posts
  • LocationBuckinghamshire, UK

Posted 20 January 2016 - 09:02 AM

I don't think it does after all, unmesh cleaned up some segments, left at least one and introduced some other small ones. It will not go back to smooth.

Attached Thumbnails

  • AS2016.01.20030741.jpg
  • AS2016.01.20030731.jpg

FZ8.5 pro with Renderzone on Windows 7 64bit.

Family Plan.


#31 jonmoore

jonmoore

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 285 posts

Posted 20 January 2016 - 09:09 AM

I don't think it does after all, unmesh cleaned up some segments, left at least one and introduced some other small ones. It will not go back to smooth.

 

Once you Mesh something it cannot be returned to a smooth object. As I understand it, unmesh only functions on planar faces. Your object is still a mesh object but planar faces are turned to Ngon's (the underlying triangles still exist but you don't have to view them in the viewport). 



#32 kmwhitt

kmwhitt

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 100 posts

Posted 20 January 2016 - 09:10 AM

Worked perfectly in V7.  I will try on V8.5 tonight at home.

Attached Thumbnails

  • Untitled-1.jpg


#33 kmwhitt

kmwhitt

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 100 posts

Posted 20 January 2016 - 09:24 AM

I tried again with different display resolutions.  Anything above 50% will not unmesh well.



#34 jonmoore

jonmoore

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 285 posts

Posted 20 January 2016 - 09:41 AM

Jon - thanks for the reply.  I am aware that everything comes down to triangles, however, my goal was to get N-gons in C4D.  This way I am able to perform other subdivision operations within Cinema.  Export works perfectly in V6.6.2 regardless of whether or not it's smooth or faceted - see attached.  This is what I am after, but don't think it's possible with the newer versions of FMZ as polygonal modeling has been removed.  I cannot use the normal tags in C4D as they don't play well with Vray (my main render engine).

 

Rendered with V-Ray in C4D (R15) without problems. And you should be attempting to avoid Ngons if you want to use SubD modelling techniques as SubD's hate Ngons (unless you think carefully about the topology). Your feature request for polygonal modeling tools to be returned to FormZ is fair but some of your other points are less so. If you wanted to create geometry similar to your model but one that functions with subdivision surface modelling, the caps would need to be generated with quad polygons. This type of operation is only available in specialist polygon modelers (mine was created in Modo).

 

1kzpD.png

 

16X6B.png



#35 kmwhitt

kmwhitt

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 100 posts

Posted 20 January 2016 - 10:17 AM

I should have said quadrangles (not N-gons) which HyperNurbs in C4D does favor.  The normal tag issue in complex scenes is one of calculation speed for Vray.  At least that is what I've read on the Vray for C4D forum - to ALWAYS avoid them.  Further, I have seen strange artifacts with Vray when rendering with normal tags that simply disappear when removed.  Thanks again for all the input.  I will stick with V6.6.2 until such time AutoDesys returns with faceted modeling (if that happens).



#36 jonmoore

jonmoore

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 285 posts

Posted 20 January 2016 - 10:49 AM

The normal tag issue in complex scenes is one of calculation speed for Vray.  At least that is what I've read on the Vray for C4D forum - to ALWAYS avoid them.  

 

All good. Happy to help.

 

With regards to the deleting of normal tags this advice is one of those things that has spread throughout the wider community (pops up on the Maya and Modo forums as well as the C4D ones). And at one time it was the only way to work with polygonal models that originated/were translated from a CAD package. In truth that Normal tag/map is essential as smoothing angle alone is a very blunt tool. Most decent CAD packages now have a similar option to FormZ's 'Hi Quality' smoothing option so it's advisable to keep the normal tag/map wherever you can. It's also advisable to avoid modeling operations downstream in your DCC package as this can break the smoothing information in the normal tag/map. I think this is just the nature of the beast when working with assets originally modelled in a CAD package. Even a high end plugin such as Power Translators (which imports all quad geometry from IGES or Step files) created weird topology which can be difficult to work with. And power translators is a $500 plugin.

 

So all in all I'm grateful for the the improvements that Autodessys have made but would agree that a few of FormZ's v6 tools got thrown out with the proverbial bathwater. Their return would improve FormZ in a future update.


  • kmwhitt likes this





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: rounding, facetted, polygonal modeling, cinema 4d

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users